Can Opener
Monsters of the Construction Site
Posts: 642
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Post by Can Opener on Jan 28, 2021 7:34:39 GMT
I wasn't trying to criticize you personally Silver. Thank you for all of the work you put into this game and for running it. It's a huge service to the MS community to design and mod an LSG, and I totally understand and respect the amount of work that it takes. It's also a largely thankless job, and I do get that and know that this game in particular has come with many challenges for you.
But also we're allowed to give opinions on the game design. I've complimented things about the game design when I've liked them, and I'll criticize them when I don't like them. That's part of what being a spec entails.
I don't play complex games because of this very reason, so I do take your point that players knew somewhat what they were getting into, but also I fundamentally think that being voted out, no matter what a game's complexity, should always be a negative thing. Balance and complexity to me aren't mutually exclusive. Maybe you value that less or differently than I do, but we can disagree without it being a personal attack.
I do get your frustration with criticism after putting in so much work. I do. I'm sorry for upsetting you. And the path you went with is definitely better than giving them free idols for being voted out, so glad that didn't happen. But also I think my criticism was fair and legitimate, and I've tried to be a balanced spectator and express my appreciation for elements of the game design as well. If you can handle honest compliments but not honest criticism, then I don't think that's a very healthy mindset. I don't think any of the criticism in this thread was out of line, in my mind at least.
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Post by OperatorMeme on Jan 28, 2021 7:38:59 GMT
I also guess I'm okay with like, one unfair twist in the early stages of the game. If this was at F5 it'd be more problematic but taking player(s) who're voted out early and giving them a second chance to throw a spanner in the works for other players is pretty time honoured tradition in Survivor Plus here, everyone was expecting Redemption anyway so it's not as much of a shock I think. That particularly means they knew to 'redemption-manage' during the vote and if they didn't, that was a mistake on their part (I was especially surprised by Hare on that, because he's been tracking the Redemption roles pretty closely).
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Can Opener
Monsters of the Construction Site
Posts: 642
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Post by Can Opener on Jan 28, 2021 7:46:57 GMT
The initial draft actually had them going home. They were sent to exile instead because it didn't feel right to have the player who goes home in Gummy Bear's spot to have auto-immunity and then get back into the game, while the players who went out next would have an outright worse result. Which... kind of just pushed the issue back a round. I think there are definitely better ways we could have done this - probably informing players that they'd be voting someone into exile would be the easiest one - but as Silver mentioned, this game was kind of rushed through the design phase to make sure something ran! At the end of the day, it's a twist that players will have to take in their stride. It's not the most fair, but it is a complex game. I don't like them going home either. It's definitely tricky. I was kind of hoping that they would join RI for a single round without Immunity and then there'd be a vote kind of like the first vote of Exile where two players were sent home via a vote. That definitely has issues as well because they'd potentially be sent into the lion's den to immediately get voted out vs people with more connections, but to me I'd err on the side of punishing players who got fairly voted out over rewarding them. Also a situation where the top two vote getters went home would mean that the other players on RI couldn't just ignore them at least, and at least one would likely be able to make it out alive. That's just me though. That also has the additional problem of not giving the main game anything to do for that period. You could give them a break I guess for a round while RI resolved itself, or you could give them an auction to make up for all of the items that eliminated players were able to get from RI. I get that there aren't easy solutions, and if anyone else has better ideas, I'd be curious to hear them. That doesn't change the fact that the solution imo isn't an entirely fair one. And Gummy Bear being guaranteed Immunity is a problem too, but giving Immunity to more eliminated players doesn't solve it. I honestly think if I was modding, I would have cut this last double TC entirely, had the main game pause for a round or do something useless, and let RI have at least one round with no HoH or Immunity so Gummy Bear at least had to survive something. But I'm not a mod and you guys are, and so you guys get to make those decisions. Those are just my thoughts. Definitely a tricky spot from a design pov.
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Post by OperatorMeme on Jan 28, 2021 7:47:15 GMT
The initial draft actually had them going home. They were sent to exile instead because it didn't feel right to have the player who goes home in Gummy Bear's spot to have auto-immunity and then get back into the game, while the players who went out next would have an outright worse result. Which... kind of just pushed the issue back a round. I think there are definitely better ways we could have done this - probably informing players that they'd be voting someone into exile would be the easiest one - but as Silver mentioned, this game was kind of rushed through the design phase to make sure something ran! At the end of the day, it's a twist that players will have to take in their stride. It's not the most fair, but it is a complex game. ^also making sure you didn't miss this when you page topped Can. I definitely think its valid criticism - although definitely easy to take it badly when you've put a lot of work into the game so I don't blame Silver in that respect.
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Post by OperatorMeme on Jan 28, 2021 7:47:33 GMT
Ninja'd
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Can Opener
Monsters of the Construction Site
Posts: 642
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Post by Can Opener on Jan 28, 2021 7:58:07 GMT
Also kinda hilarious that we've now spent two full rounds of the game voting out three people all of whom had a 100% chance of returning due to game design. Not necessarily bad design, but just kinda wonky. Why did we even waste our time?
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Can Opener
Monsters of the Construction Site
Posts: 642
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Post by Can Opener on Jan 28, 2021 8:05:25 GMT
I hope Maggie wins Individual Immunity. That maximizes drama, and also she's a queen.
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Can Opener
Monsters of the Construction Site
Posts: 642
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Post by Can Opener on Jan 28, 2021 8:12:33 GMT
Also wow, Monk and Zero both having safety without power is fucking huge. Dark Rey could be incredibly fucked.
Imagine if Cleric wins Immunity and Zero and Monk both leave. But Dark Rey chose which advantages to buy, so she does own that.
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Post by OperatorMeme on Jan 28, 2021 8:41:10 GMT
I would really like to see Maggie win immunity as well. She definitely feels like the easy boot on that tribe right now.
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Post by OperatorMeme on Jan 28, 2021 9:09:13 GMT
is there a forum visible to the players? I just realised that I hadn't given Specs access perms for these. You should see them now! Congrats
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Post by Owen Wilson as Kenny Bostick on Jan 28, 2021 13:43:14 GMT
This game was put together because something had to run, and I had an idea that ultimately was not this but became this anyways. The original idea was Survivor Christmas.
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Post by Architect Pine on Jan 28, 2021 14:45:04 GMT
This game was put together because something had to run, and I had an idea that ultimately was not this but became this anyways. The original idea was Survivor Christmas. It really wasn't, though. We started designing it in mid-November while Flash Mob was running, so there was no expectation it would be live before January. This exile phase is a bit awkward, but a recurring theme in this game is that players bounce back and get extra chances. Getting voted out is not immediately fatal until well into the process, and can sometimes be beneficial if you work for it. Michael, Rey, and Cleric are coming out of RI far stronger than they likely would have been at the bottom of the initial main tribes. Avocado and Plagueis both benefited from the first exile. This is less a bug, more a feature. The merits of that feature might be debateable, but it's working more or less as intended.
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Round 08
Jan 28, 2021 16:38:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by Supervisor Silverclaw on Jan 28, 2021 16:38:26 GMT
As a bit of a note, now that it's not 1:30am, I also went through a breakup last week. I'm generally better than I was at the start, but my emotions still run high.
My apologies if that came off as an attack ^^
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Post by Owen Wilson as Kenny Bostick on Jan 28, 2021 17:22:26 GMT
Lavendar is guaranteed to go haywire.
You either have a four-person TC (if Monk or Zero wins immunity and therefore doesn't use their safety) with two people immune (MonkZero and Cera with his idol) and multiple vote steals, tie vote breakers, and a vote cancel involved or Both Monk and Zero eject and you have a three-person TC, with either just Cera immune (if he wins the challenge), and again with vote steals, tie breakers, and a vote cancel involved or Both Monk and Zero eject and non-Cera wins immunity, Cera plays an idol, and the last person is auto-eliminated
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Post by Owen Wilson as Kenny Bostick on Jan 28, 2021 17:25:17 GMT
or Cera could try to hang onto his idol for some reason and could also be eligible to go home (would be a poor decision but I guess possible)
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